Storytelling!

🎙️ Podcast Show Notes Introduction

Something has shifted in this industry and if you’ve been paying attention, you’ve felt it.

The resistance that once defined intimacy work? It’s fading.

In its place, something far more exciting is emerging: better storytelling.

In this episode, we unpack what happens when intimacy professionals are no longer fighting to justify their role and they can finally focus on what they’re truly there to do: tell nuanced, authentic, deeply human stories.

From high-profile productions to personal experiences on set, this conversation explores why intimacy storytelling is entering a new era and what that means for both professionals and audiences alike.

👂 What to Listen For

• Why so many intimacy professionals are no longer facing resistance on set and what changed in the industry to create that shift
• The hidden skill of navigating bias, discomfort, and personal assumptions
• Why less resistance means more time for actual storytelling and how intimacy work is expanding into more nuanced and diverse narratives
• The role of intimacy professionals in shaping authentic representation  and how intimacy work is expanding into more nuanced and diverse narratives
• The responsibility of ICs to honor complexity—not simplify it

🔗 Important Links

• How to Become an Intimacy Professional Free Webinar
• Intimacy Directors and Coordinators Home Page
• How Aspiring Intimacy Professionals Can Build Their First Kit

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome to the IDC podcast. It is Marie Percy here today. I'm one of the co-founders here at IDC, and I have with me the fabulous Claire Warden, our director of advanced training. How are you today, Claire? Hello, I'm doing great. Very happy to be here chatting with you. Yeah, awesome. So should we just dive right in about what we're talking about today? So this was an idea, we had the idea for this podcast came up when Claire and I were in a meeting, and we were talking about the recent certification portfolio review process that we were doing. So if you don't know, in our certification program at the end of the program, our people who are getting ready to be certified have to submit a final portfolio. And in that portfolio, they have to answer some questions. And one of the questions they have to answer

The Big Shift: No More Resistance

SPEAKER_00 1:04

is about dealing with resistance that they encounter in the industry. And what we noticed in this most recent batch of certification folks is that like 90% of them were like, yeah, I'm not meeting any resistance. I show up to my gig and everyone's cool, everybody's on board, everyone's like excited to have me there. And that's just not the way it was when I first started doing this work.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Even a year ago, like watching them last cycle, there was, you know, it was a little bit better, but there was still talks of and conversation around that. Like the just in the last year, I feel it has made such a shift. It's it's it's astounding.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah, it's really amazing. Do you have any insight into why you think that shift is has happened? Like I'm thinking like part of it is just time, right? Like what we've been around long enough that maybe we've reached a critical mass of people understanding and accepting the work. But I'm curious about your thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yeah, it's really can only be conjecture, but I think I think there are a number of things. I think, as you say, the amount of time we've been around also has afforded more people to have the opportunity to work with an intimacy coordinator or director. And, you know, we're we're suspicious of what we don't know. And there was lots of talk around what intimacy directors or coordinators could do. So I think that the what I hear is the very common experience of people being unsure, and then an intimacy director or coordinator comes into their show and they're like, oh my goodness, this is so helpful. Oh my God, this makes everything better. I get it now. So I think a lot of people have had that experience. And it's,

From Explaining the Role to Being Known

SPEAKER_02 2:50

I remember like I one of my first questions is always Have you ever worked with an intimacy coordinator or director? And now, hands down, pretty much everyone is saying yes. And it used to be that the start of every conversation was like, no, great, let me explain what I do. So I think that's helped. I also think that there's been a consistent coverage of intimacy, specifically coordinators, in the general kind of entertainment press. And it has swung very much from the certain style speaking out against wanting them to a lot of support and gratitude expressed by many different actors in many different shows for intimacy coordinators. So I think that has also brought the general opinion of them into a positive and useful light. And I think we're training some really good intimacy coordinators. Well, I think, I think, you know, people that have gone through our program really have such an incredible setup and set of skills that they can walk in confident and present this kind of open, confident, present, warm start to working and to explaining how to work and really like collaborating with everybody. So that right away puts people on your team as opposed to in resistance to you. So maybe that's part of it as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, and I think it's, I think you really hit the nail on the head there because when I

Better Training, Better Collaboration

SPEAKER_00 4:28

think about my early experiences and trying to get people on board at my university in the early years when I was doing this work, and the conversation used to have to be like, okay, this is why we need to do audition notices. This is why we need to tell actors ahead of time what's going to be expected of them. And then that in and of itself took, you know, multiple meetings and conversations and working through people's resistance and their, you know, them being challenged by something new. And so there was so much of the role when I was doing it then that was about having to help people navigate through their own personal biases and their own personal trauma and assumptions about what should be and how it's always been. And so I think a lot of how to do that gracefully has been built into our program, right? Because it does take a lot of care and warmth and understanding and empathy and and reflective listening and like, okay, I hear that this is where this is coming from, and let me help you see a different way, let me provide this opportunity, let me find the moment where I can say the one thing that's gonna be extra helpful, that's gonna open your eyes to the possibility of what this could be. And I think because I know that was my early experience, I know you had a lot of experiences like that. And so I think because we come from that place, we have a hypersensitivity to this the fragility and beauty of collaboration, if you will. And yeah, and it's really exciting to hear that like maybe we don't need that so much anymore, but also that that is just this amazing tool that that's worth developing as an intimacy professional.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Yeah, I think we also had the years of honing that like how do what's successful and what isn't successful in those situations. And we've been able to kind of feed that in and and sew that through all of our whole training program so that you know everyone's getting the right way right away.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

I'm laughing because I'm like a Gryffindor, right? So my my initial approach was like, everybody on the count of three, go, let's go, we'll just do the thing, right? And it doesn't work like that so much.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

I see. Whereas I think I'm a secret Slytherin, so I found a way to like sneakily get people to understand.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

I do also think, as you were talking there, Marie, I also I'm wondering because we now have had some very accessible and high-profile shows that have been very open about using intimacy, directors or coordinators, that people have had the opportunity to see. I also think people have started to see how in the final product, in the show itself, I was trying to realize how that kind of support and expertise shapes the whole story, gives them that watching experience that they might not have had before in the depth that it is possible now, and that the stories are becoming bigger and richer, and they're looking at that and realizing, oh, part of that is because the intimacy director or coordinator helmed that whole process and made that possible.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yeah, and that's kind of

A New Era of Intimacy Storytelling

SPEAKER_00 7:50

the big topic that I wanted to get to for today's podcast that I have in my notes, which is like we are entering an era now where the intimacy storytelling possibilities are blossoming because everybody understands the role better now. There's less resistance to work through, which allows us actually to get to let's tell the story, let's dig into what's happening here, let me lend my choreographic skill and eye to the director's vision to build something that is more nuanced and more exciting and more representation across the types of intimate experiences that can exist in the realm of humanity, right? Which is like infinitely wide and varied and beautiful. And, you know, it's something I'm so passionate about because intimacy is such a taboo subject, especially in the United States. But, you know, it's it is the foundation of being a human being. It's like that's how we make more of us, that's how we connect, that's how we form bonds, you know, like whether it is a physical intimate act or it is the kind of intimate bond between two best friends or a mother and a child. Like it is foundationally part of who we are as human beings. And we deserve to be able to tell and experience stories that reflect just this full range of expression of human intimacy.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

And I will say, I think, especially with what's happening in our world right now and how divided we are and how disconnected we are, and yet still kind of rabidly reaching out through social media for attention, for connection, but it is in such a disconnected way and such an isolated way. I think more than ever, I feel the crave for many types of intimacy, both physical and emotional, but of seeing those stories. And whether it be seeing the stories that you long for, or whether it be seeing your stories that resonate that you want to change, or whether it be, you know, recognizing, oh, that's what's happening in my story in my life, and I don't want that, or I do want that, or I saw that and now I understand it. I think we're at a critical societal need for not only the witnessing of intimacy, but also, you know, maybe a little bit of education around it. Yeah. Teaching people how people don't we I think we've lost the kind of hand-down education and learning of intimacy that we might get in our families and our friend groups before. And so a little bit of reference right there in our living rooms or right there in the theater.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Yeah, because like if you grow up and the only stories you see are seeing are boy meets girl, white woman meets white man, and then they have some fun rom-com mishaps, but then they kiss and everything is better, and then they get married, right? Like that, I think that sets, you know, that kind of like narrative, sets so many people up for failure. And I'm not saying some people don't have that experience, some people do, and that's beautiful for them. But also there are so many people who don't see their experience reflected in that in a variety of ways. And, you know, if you're not seeing your story reflected or something that you can relate to reflected, how are you discovering yourself? Like I think there's just this beautiful mirror opportunity for self-discovery through storytelling and through listening to what other people have experienced and the stories other people are telling. And so I want to talk about just like some examples where we've seen this play out in our careers. So,

Case Study: Dying for Sex

SPEAKER_00 11:56

of course, the people are dying to hear, and I'm dying to know, Claire. Can you talk a little bit about dying for sex and the ways in which, you know, this intimate storytelling in a non-traditional sort of story played out? And and yeah, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah. So I was the intimacy coordinator on a show called Dying for Sex, which you can see on Hulu now, starring the incredible Michelle Williams and a whole host of incredible other actors as well. Jenny Slate plays her best friend, and it's a true story about a woman called Molly who is diagnosed with uh terminal cancer and decides that she is going to leave her husband and spend the few remaining months of her life discovering Kink and all other ways of sex and sexuality that she has not up until this point perhaps had the courage or the opportunity to explore and kind of find freedom in her body whilst it is being claimed by cancer and the medical profession. And I think, like in terms of storytelling, what was so satisfying and so exciting about this project A was that it was a true story. And so you have that you have that balance of honouring the real people and the the actual things that happened. And in fact, Jenny Slate plays Nikki, Molly's best friend, and real life Nikki was with us on set as part of our executive producer and consultant, which was quite amazing in certain situations to be like standing on set and she was watching uh act actor Molly and Nikki creating scenes from her life. And there were even there were even a couple of scenes where, you know, because of course, along with honouring the story, there was storytelling license taken to create a TV show out of this. And I remember the one scene where Nikki said that it was a scene that had been written that hadn't actually managed to happen with her and Molly. And she was like, now that I get to sit and watch that, I I feel a kind of closure that I never thought I'd have. That's like giving me chills, right? Like, oh, I tell you that the the tears I cried on this set. Um but what we did have in terms of storytelling was this complex arc, right? Because we have, on one hand, we have Molly is discovering all kinds of new sexual experiences. And we're also looking at the really authentic storytelling of the medical procedures and the toll that the medical aspects take on someone's body. And she had breast cancer, so you know, going through she'd already had a mastectomy, but and going through what the the drugs did to her body and the chemo did to her body and and losing feeling when she was trying to get like sexual gratification. And and then you also had this this parallel story running of Nikki, the best friend, is the one that Molly goes to when she leaves her husband and and says, I want to die with you. She wants to live the rest of her life with with Nikki. And so I'm just as we I'm thinking back on it, I'm remembering, you know, all the different aspects of the work that I did, which was okay, we have this breast examination with the doctor. So how are we going to create that as a story? Next to all right, we have the you know, the really unsatisfying hookup with the young hot guy that doesn't quite know what he's doing and she needs more and more loom. And how do we show that? To the Nikki and Molly lying in bed together. Yeah, and you know, she found she found real comfort by holding Nikki's boob and just being like, can we just cuddle together? And that I think what made it such a powerful and satisfying project to work on is that all of those aspects were happening at the same time. So it wasn't, it's not, you're not just watching a show about cancer, or you're just watching a show about sex, or you're just watching a show about these friends. It it's it's the the reality that these aspects of different kinds of intimacy and body engagement all interweave at the same time at points in our lives. And so actually, the enhancing of the impact of one of the stories is done by not shying away from the other. So the fact that she has a port in her for her chemo, and she doesn't necessarily want to show it when she's having sex. So there's all this like, how does she undress in order to tie that? And what is it to be?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

The level of specificity is so powerful. And like, I you I just don't think you can get that level of specificity without a dedicated professional whose job it is to work with the actor and the director to think through that level of specificity. Okay, how does the garment come off while keeping the port covered?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Right. And and you know, we have uh so she, you know, in her life, Molly explores kink. And I was very determined at the beginning of the project that we, especially within the kink, her specific discovery was the dominant dominant role, submissive role, which was and and moving into a dominating role in in sex play, in kind of role play and power play. And it was really important to me that if we were gonna tell the story of Dom Sub Clay and of Kink and of the Kink community, that we really honor it. There's been a lot of stories that have kind of sat on the surface or been a little bit like, you know, pure all about it, or giggle, giggle, everyone's dressed in leather and spanking each other, right? And and then and a complete lack of understanding of the power and the the connection that that kind of interaction gives. So it really mattered that when we did start to explore these scenes, that we could show Molly exploring and finding it out and getting it wrong and figuring out, but we could also give honor and education in our storytelling around that community, around that kind of engagement, about the healing that Dom Sub Play can can give, about the power, uh, the releasing, the negotiations and care and contract that happens within that play.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah. And I think it's so important to get the full breadth of that story because I have seen other stories where they're not getting that level of nuance about the power play that's happening, and it ends up just sort of fetishizing abuse in a really not useful way, and it doesn't capture the whole picture. And and I think, yeah, capturing the full picture and getting that level of nuance about the story. I also have like a an example that comes to

Case Study: Rent

SPEAKER_00 19:38

mind when it comes to like getting more nuanced. So I was working on a production of Rent, and the actor is playing Colin and Angel. They have a song called I'll Cover You, and it's about them like falling in love and coming together. And so I was working with the director and the two actors, and they were having a really hard time discovering and figuring out like what that physical relationship should be inside of that song and the arc of the song. And they were all queer men who I was working with, and I said, and I said, Well, like for me as a choreographer, let's just talk through sort of technically some of the things I think about. How does the contact initiate? Like, when does the contact start? How does it start? Is there tension before it starts, or have we just jumped into it? And it unit opened up this conversation about intimacy in gay male relationships, about how no, in their experience of being a gay man, the the intimacy was not so much about the physical contact, so much as it was about the emotional connection that was happening in the song. Right. And so I was able to give that like one choreographic question, and it opened up this whole conversation about how intimacy is different in the queer community and for gay men than it would be in my experience as a straight white woman, right? And so then we were able to take that and build it into how we put that song together, and it made the final moment of that song where they are like committing to each other so much more powerful because we had been able to dive into that conversation about, you know, where is the power inside this choreography? And I don't know, that just it really stood out to me as a moment where I was like, oh, this is telling a story that is beyond my personal experience and so important that I'm able in this moment to facilitate the conversation and uplift their story and not be imposing what I think it should be, but be highlighting and sharing something that is representative of a wider community.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

And I and I imagine all. Also resonate so strongly with all the audience that go and see that. And if you have gay men in the audience who will recognize that you know, if if someone is telling a story about your own experience and it doesn't ring true, that's one of the first things that will like feel ah, well, I'm out, or oh come on, another like, okay, another stray person trying to tell a story about gay people who doesn't get it, like, okay, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:27

It's going to take the audience right out.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah, and and the by by doing that, you built a space for them, those audience members in that theater every night in order to truly feel like part, belong, that this was for and of them. And that that I think is is also I I think a big shift that we've seen is that the importance or the realizing from the wider industry the importance of the specificity and authenticity of the stories that we tell in terms of intimacy.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

And and what we're what we're kind of calling or putting putting out there for the audience, because I think, you know, in that example, right? Maybe many gay men watching that would be like, I know this. This is this is this is true to my experience, my life. I feel seen, I feel, I belong, I feel I know this. And then people that don't are of that identity and don't have that, you know, I think we also get a a bit of opportunity for education and learning, right? And and and challenging of what might be assumptions and stereotypes, and well, that's not what it is from my experience. And then we're we're getting to learn about other people's experience and having them centered, which I think is part for me, has always been part of the entertainment industry, regardless how you know fun and fluffy it might be, is that it is a tool of education and it is a tool of showing people and experiences outside of the individual's personal life so that we can continue to grow and learn as a society about each other and build empathy and understanding and a comfort with difference and all the stuff that we're desperately lacking right now.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah. And I just I also want to say that like there may be a gay man listening to this podcast right now who's like, what they shared with you in that production doesn't resonate with me, right? And like none of this is about saying, oh, we're we're representing a monolith, but at the same time, it is about getting a broader range of stories that we're telling, right? And that was true for them in that moment, and that fueled their performance and made it more powerful.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Um and that's the thing with the broader range, and that we don't just have the one gay previous one show. You know, this is the show, this is the kink show, right? Right? Because then it does, it does become monolith because you don't have that breadth of storytelling. And you know, you look at something, you know, everyone's talking about it, and uh, you know, we're so proud of Chaylor Hunter, who was the the uh IC on it, but people talk about heated rivalry and even the different kind of interactions that you see within that one show that's the big, you know, yeah, it's the big sexy, fun, gay soap opera show that's happening, but it's also not the only one on this season on your streaming networks. And I think that that really matters. I also think it can be, I think it's really important for us to keep challenging our audiences about their assumptions with different types of intimacy. A very quick story that I remember working

Case Study: Three Women

SPEAKER_02 26:07

on a show called Three Women, which is based on a book, again, another true story. This seems to be my genre, but uh there's a storyline in it of a of a character called Maggie who has, when she's 16 and underage, is persuaded into a sexual relationship with her teacher. And then a number of years later, by the time she's 21, he gets a Teacher of the Year award and she comes forward and tells her story. Wow. But in in crafting the scenes of the sexual interactions between them in flashback when she was 16 and he was in his 30s, it we talked a lot about the how we portray these, and it became important to me that we were really uh honoring and telling Maggie the character's point of view, and that it wasn't just you know a kind of cliche, bad predator teacher and girl that doesn't know what she's doing, but like at the time Maggie was in love with him and wanted to, and so the discomfort of telling a scene where it isn't it's it's not easy for the always just to go, well, he's bad, she didn't know, end of story, right? That like it was wrong of him, and she at the time wanted him, but it what wasn't in a place emotionally to actually make that full decision. And I think that complexity helps us to keep a nuance and an open-mindedness as audience members as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yeah, I think that might be why, as a society, we shy away from intimacy and and push it away and put it in the dark corner and it's taboo. Let's not talk about it, because there is a lot in there to be uncomfortable about. And that is complicated and messy. And and is it right? Is it wrong? But it's our not our job as intimacy professionals to make a judgment about the rightness or wrongness of the story, but it's our job to be there to honor the story and to tell the story in in as with as much integrity as we can, so that yeah, we can we can take a deeper, deeper look at what it what does it mean to be a human being? What does it mean to be a 16-year-old girl who's in love with her teacher? What does it mean to be a 30-year-old teacher who makes a bad decision? We could talk about this all day, Claire. I really feel like we could. But I want to wrap

Advice for Intimacy Professionals

SPEAKER_00 28:44

this up because we've been going for quite a while here. But is there anything that you would like to share for folks who are aspiring intimacy professionals or working intimacy professionals as just like a tip or thing to think about when it comes to getting that kind of nuance and authenticity in their storytelling?

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Yeah, I think it's really important to not forget that part of this role is storytelling. Yes, the advocacy is important and we're proud and honored to do it, and the the choreography technically can be satisfying and fun. But at the end of the day, we're also storytellers and we're there to tell a story. And I think the more expanded your storytelling experience can be, the more you have to mind. So I would like, I would say go and see shows, and whether that be theater shows or TV or movies, that you wouldn't normally choose to see. Like sign up to a theater's mailing list that you haven't been to yet. Or, you know, tell all your network, hey, I'm a great theater day. If you see a show, a show, ask me. I may never have heard of it, and I'll be like, yes, I'll go. Or look up what's outside of your neighborhood. When you go on vacation, go see a theater show or a movie in the local theater. I think if we expand our story-receiving experience, then we're continually building inspiration and and more depth in our storytelling experience. So, so yeah, find a show that you would normally just flick by and watch it and see what happens, see what you learn.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

I love that. I think that is a beautiful, beautiful tip there to wrap us up. Thank you so much for being here with us, Claire, and sharing all your brilliance and your experience out in the field. Oh, so so happy to be. I'll come back anytime. Great. Well, I'm gonna keep dragging you back here. So it's good. Thank you, everybody, for listening today, for sticking with us, for you know, your interest in this work, your commitment to this work, those of you that are out there doing this work, making the entertainment industry a better place to be. I am so grateful for you all and grateful for you all listening. And we will see you on the next episode of the IDC podcast.